Dezerter pisze:tylko do owiec, które poginęły z domu Izraela
do domu (Izraela) mogą wrócić tylko ci co z niego wyszli (poginęli) a nie tak jak ty twierdzisz, ci , którzy nigdy w nim nie byli. Jak można wrócić gdzieś gdzie się nigdy nie było?
bartek212701 pisze:Bo wszyscy zgrzeszyli i brak im chwały Bożej.Byliśmy w raju[ludzie] musielismy Go opuścić czy nie chciałbyś tam wrócić ?
Bartek, właśnie zacytowałeś Pawła, a konkretnie jego List do Rzymian. Wtenczas rozpoczęło się już nauczanie pogan. Tak jak to podkreslił Jachu, katecheza pogan rozpoczęła się gdzieś 3 lata po śmierci Jezusa, przede wszystkim właśnie za sprawą Pawła.
W zacytowanym przeze mnie wersecie z Ewangelii Mateusza mowa jest wyraźnie o owcach z domu Izraela, które mają do niego wrócić. Izrael to nie jest jakaś metafora raju. Mowa jest po prostu o Żydach.
Jezus przyszedł do owiec Izraela i nauczał Żydów. Przykład z kobietą Kananejską pokazuje to dobitnie.
Współczesne Chrześcijaństwo opiera się głownie na naukach Pawła. Jest to Chrześcijaństwo które zasymilowało pogańskie zwyczaje i robiło to sukcesywnie wraz z poszerzaniem się kręgu wiernych. Judeochrześcijaństwo, które zapoczątkował Jezus, a próbował kontynuować chociażby Jakub praktycznie wymarło.
Dezerter pisze:Głosowałem na tak - choć zdaje sobie sobie sprawę, że nie wszystkie są Pawła, ale wszystkie uznaje za natchnione:
mam wątpliwości co do :
[...] 2 i 3 Jana i 2 nie Piotra
Osobiście mam jeszcze wątpliwości co do Apokalipsy Jana. Wśród pierwszych Chrześcijan istniał pogląd, że 2 i 3 List Jana oraz Apokalipsę nie napisał Jan Ewangelista (syn Zebedeusza i Salome), ale Jan Prezbiter. Pierwsza wzmianka o nim pochodzi od Papiasza, biskupa Hierapolis (70-135).
For I did not, like the multitude, take pleasure in those who spoke much, but in those who taught the truth; nor in those who related strange commandments, but in those who rehearsed the commandments given by the Lord to faith, and proceeding from truth itself. If, then, any one who had attended on the elders came, I asked minutely after their sayings,--what Andrew or Peter said, or what was said by Philip, or by Thomas, or by James, or by John, or by Matthew, or by any other of the Lord's disciples: which things Aristion and the presbyter John, the disciples of the Lord, say. For I imagined that what was to be got from books was not so profitable to me as what came from the living and abiding voice. [Oracles of the Lord I]
Jak widzimy Papiasz wymienia dwóch Janów. Jednego umieszcza wśród apostołów (oznaczony kolorem zielonym), a drugiego określa jako prezbitera (kolor niebieski) i wymienia obok Aristona.
Wspomina o nim także Euzebiusz z Cezarei w
Historii Kościoła.
There are extant five books of Papias, which bear the title Expositions of Oracles of the Lord. Irenæus makes mention of these as the only works written by him, in the following words: These things are attested by Papias, an ancient man who was a hearer of John and a companion of Polycarp, in his fourth book. For five books have been written by him. These are the words of Irenæus. But Papias himself in the preface to his discourses by no means declares that he was himself a hearer and eye-witness of the holy apostles, but he shows by the words which he uses that he received the doctrines of the faith from those who were their friends. He says: But I shall not hesitate also to put down for you along with my interpretations whatsoever things I have at any time learned carefully from the elders and carefully remembered, guaranteeing their truth. For I did not, like the multitude, take pleasure in those that speak much, but in those that teach the truth; not in those that relate strange commandments, but in those that deliver the commandments given by the Lord to faith, and springing from the truth itself. If, then, any one came, who had been a follower of the elders, I questioned him in regard to the words of the elders— what Andrew or what Peter said, or what was said by Philip, or by Thomas, or by James, or by John, or by Matthew, or by any other of the disciples of the Lord, and what things Aristion and the presbyter John, the disciples of the Lord, say. For I did not think that what was to be gotten from the books would profit me as much as what came from the living and abiding voice. It is worthwhile observing here that the name John is twice enumerated by him. The first one he mentions in connection with Peter and James and Matthew and the rest of the apostles, clearly meaning the evangelist; but the other John he mentions after an interval, and places him among others outside of the number of the apostles, putting Aristion before him, and he distinctly calls him a presbyter. This shows that the statement of those is true, who say that there were two persons in Asia that bore the same name, and that there were two tombs in Ephesus, each of which, even to the present day, is called John's. It is important to notice this. For it is probable that it was the second, if one is not willing to admit that it was the first that saw the Revelation, which is ascribed by name to John. And Papias, of whom we are now speaking, confesses that he received the words of the apostles from those that followed them, but says that he was himself a hearer of Aristion and the presbyter John. At least he mentions them frequently by name, and gives their traditions in his writings. These things, we hope, have not been uselessly adduced by us.[HK III; 39: 1-7]
Euzebiusz stwierdza także, że to właśnie Jan Prezbiter jest autorem Apokalipsy Jana.
Potwierdza to Hieronim w swoim dziele
On Illustrious Men
John, the apostle whom Jesus most loved, the son of Zebedee and brother of James, the apostle whom Herod, after our Lord's passion, beheaded, most recently of all the evangelists wrote a Gospel, at the request of the bishops of Asia, against Cerinthus and other heretics and especially against the then growing dogma of the Ebionites, who assert that Christ did not exist before Mary. On this account he was compelled to maintain His divine nativity. But there is said to be yet another reason for this work, in that when he had read Matthew, Mark, and Luke, he approved indeed the substance of the history and declared that the things they said were true, but that they had given the history of only one year, the one, that is, which follows the imprisonment of John and in which he was put to death. So passing by this year the events of which had been set forth by these, he related the events of the earlier period before John was shut up in prison, so that it might be manifest to those who should diligently read the volumes of the four Evangelists. This also takes away the discrepancy which there seems to be between John and the others. He wrote also one Epistle which begins as follows "That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, that which we have seen with our eyes and our hands handled concerning the word of life" which is esteemed of by all men who are interested in the church or in learning. The other two of which the first is "The elder to the elect lady and her children" and the other "The elder unto Gaius the beloved whom I love in truth," are said to be the work of John the presbyter to the memory of whom another sepulchre is shown at Ephesus to the present day, though some think that there are two memorials of this same John the evangelist. We shall treat of this matter in its turn when we come to Papias his disciple. In the fourteenth year then after Nero Domitian having raised a second persecution he was banished to the island of Patmos, and wrote the Apocalypse, on which Justin Martyr and Irenæus afterwards wrote commentaries. But Domitian having been put to death and his acts, on account of his excessive cruelty, having been annulled by the senate, he returned to Ephesus under Pertinax and continuing there until the time of the Emperor Trajan, founded and built churches throughout all Asia, and, worn out by old age, died in the sixty-eighth year after our Lord's passion and was buried near the same city.[On Illustrious Men: 9]
Hieronim przypisuje Janowi Prezbiterowi autorstwo 2 i 3 Listu Jana a także Apokalipsy.
Gdy uznano wszystkie dzieła jako kanoniczne stwierdzono, że Jan Ewangelista i Jan Prezbiter to ta sama osoba. Taka jest też oficjalna nauka Kościoła Katolickiego. Nie mnie osobiście uważa, że były to dwie różne osoby.
Jeszcze taka mała uwaga ode mnie. To, że wątpię czy niektóre Księgi Kanoniczne przez danego autora nie znaczy że uważam, że są one zbędne czy niewłaściwe. Broń Boże. I podobnie: choć uważam, że Paweł poszedł w inną stronę niż Jezus nie oznacza, że chciałabym by je usunięto z Kanonu. Wręcz przeciwnie, z zainteresowaniem czytam nawet niektóre Księgi uznane przez całe Chrześcijaństwo za Apokryfy. Postrzegam po prostu Biblię jako zbiór Ksiąg różnych autorów, którzy zostali natchnieni Duchem Świętym. Nie każdy jednak musi mieć identyczną wizję pewnych spraw i mogą się różnić od siebie.
a wrócić jeśli się chce może każdy.
bo jak je przeczytałem to sobie pomyślałem po co ? Skoro nie mam żadnych wątpliwości do nich ? Są wspaniałe! Potrafię ścierpieć tą jakże zdrową i Bożą naukę
ale ty chyba nie o ...sobie
- gdzie Rzym a gdzie Krym ... a gdzie Polska?
